e e e e e we're good to go good evening everyone and welcome to the finance committee meeting of August 22nd 2024 and is our pattern we'd like to read the land acknowledgement at this time the nagra region and grimby are situated on treaty land this land is steeped in the rich history of the First Nations such as the hadow wendon the hodan O Shan and the inisha including the mogas of the Credit First Nation there are many First Nations matey and Inuit people from across Turtle Island that live and work in Niagara today the regional Municipality of Niagara and the town of Grimsby stand with all indigenous peoples past and present in promoting the wise stewardship of the lands on which we live moving on to item three on our agenda is to ask if there are any disclosures of pecuniary or non-pecuniary interest from our committee members if there are please raise your hand I see none then we will move on to item four which is the approval of the agenda the agenda has been circulated does anybody or anyone have any amendments to the agenda um and then failing that if I could have a mover and a seconder member scandinavo good evening everyone uh I'm just curious if we could add in other business just a quick update on the timing of the reports uh that would be helpful like that we discussed at the last uh the last meeting is everyone else in agreement with that at the last meeting we had talked about the timing of the release of the reports to the finance committee so we'll just have a followup on that um I see no objection so we will add that as the item under we don't really have business arising but other business under other business okay we'll put it at the end then under other business that would be just fine then if I could have a mover and seconder to approve that councelor how has moved his approval Council councelor vardy has seconded that all those in favor of the agenda is amended and that is passed the next item is item number five which is the receipt of previous minutes we have the minutes before us tonight of the finance committee of June 27th 2024 and the gy economic development advisory committee of July 4th 2024 any comments or suggestions yes Council Changi I was remiss and not welcoming you to our committee as our newest member thank you for joining us thank you through chair I don't know if I have to lift it or I just wanted to lift uh 771 report coo- 24-4 grp development industry liazon task force um so I yes um through your chair so um councelor chis Angie wants to lift this so um what we will do is lift items we'll just need we have um councelor corang as the Mover just need a seconder to lift item 7.1 from these minutes um and then we'll just call the question on that one is there a seconder for that councelor VY is seconding that then all those in favor of lifting that item to discuss further by a show of hands please that is carried um why don't we do that first then um go ahead councelor Chris Angie if you had some questions or comments thank you through chair so I do have I have a little bit uh some concerns um and just wanted a little bit more information um I think it's great that we're that there is the idea of developing a task force I just have concerns about transparency and questions if it's going to be open to the public and if it's going to be streamed so that the public has access to see the discussions and see what's going on I also um was wondering if this was just developers and staff I see that there's Niger Regional Housing if um residents or Council will have representation as a stakeholder on this committee as well so I don't know if anybody's here to answer questions or um I'm I'm going to let Katie chime in first and then I'll probably add some comments go ahead um through you chair so when it comes to the live streaming portion of it our advisories apart from I believe Heritage and Committee of adjustment those are the only ones that get live streamed um and tasks task forces don't typically it's a lot more informal um as for your other questions that's something I can definitely take back to our Economic Development officer I'm not totally privy to all of that so um yeah and will that provide a timely enough answer for you because obviously our Deputy clerk will go back to the economic development officer Mr Mee with those questions um and then can report back at our next meeting which would be a month from now thank you through chair I'm fine with that if that could be so noted in the minutes then then if I could have a moover and seconder to receive the previous minutes and I'll read the motion resolved that the following minutes be received the finance committee of June 27th 2024 and the Grimsby Economic Development advisory committee of July 4th 2024 a mover please councelor Chris Angie a seconder counselor vardy and all those in favor of the resolution as read with a show hands please that is carried item number six on our agenda is delegations and presentations and we have none this evening so we will move on to two reports that are consent reports unless anyone wishes for them to be lifted and to be discussed further so the two consent reports are the biannual procurement report court and then the second one is the tax AAR update then I'm going to request they be lifted I would like to have them discussed so both of them in order to do so I I believe do we need a first a mover and a seconder okay not for the reports then um I'm going to ask uh Mr delm Monaco our treasurer to just give briefly lead us through um report Finance 24-22 the biannual procurement report and over to you Tony yes uh thank you so this is a regular report that's brought to committee uh every six months for information to summarize our procurement activity uh the report covers the January to end of June 2024 period so you'll see that over $16 million in work was procured during this time most of that about 10 million relates to work for the peach King Center we had tender packages one and two awarded in that window uh and overall there were 44 separate procurements issued during this time and if you look at page two it'll provide a breakdown of of those procurement methods as well as the procurement values and then the remainder of the report provides uh details related to each issuance thank you does any anyone have any questions about the report my questions have to do with the peach King Center um and I guess my first question is really just to make sure we're understanding The Columns there and I'm referring now to page 11 um and so there are two there just to use them as examples to make sure we're all understanding this report I don't profess to have the answers so I'm going to ask Mr Del mono just to to explain after I um explain my question further so to use the last example on page 11 which is the peach King Center expansion construction Management Services then the awarded vendor is Aquacon the pre-tax original procurement value 2.5 million and then the pre-tax total cumulative increase which is 10 million which then equals the next column besided of 13 million and then when we see the report um later on in our agenda on the peach King Center um is there any way to tie those amounts to that report or no because this is really this this report is about contracts awarded and the next report on the peach King Center is cumulative cost to date but maybe you could just expand upon that for us yeah if I'll address that second question first yeah so this this relates to Tender packages one and and two um whereas you're right the the the memo further on in the agenda relates to a cost to date which include includes tender package three um it the reason it's included in as a contract amendment of such a large value is because the tenders for the peach King Center were broken up into those four different packages so um so that that 2.5 represents the original tender amount and then that the 10 uh eight would include um would be the amendment for for tender Package 2 other other procurements uh related to that so it's the way it was it was structured it ends up becoming listed as a contract amendment that way even though there was really four different tenders okay member scandinavo go ahead I I guess now that we lifted the report um I I did have a question on that same line item there so This falls under the category of contract Amendment approvals which says procurement commitments that were previously approved however the total cumulative costs have become more than the original contract um and then basically requiring new approvals so like that last line is the amended amount is about four times the amount that was initially approved right so H how and same thing with like two lines above the mallum uh item like the increase is about 50% of the original approved uh value like does that go through a full procurement process again like does it go through the full RFP process again or cuz like I mean you go through you go for and maybe you can help me understand this you go for an RFP you get a contract approval for 2.5 million right and then you're amending the contract four times to Value the initial contract like does that then require another full RFP process like how do we we're getting the best bang for a buck on the renewal portion you know again understanding that you know the fire truck approval we did last time you know that's 99,000 on 1.6 million that's the item above right makes sense but when you're amending it four times the value um what's sort of the process to undertake it to ensure like value for money and and Mr delaro um I I think maybe that's just the layout of the report it as to I I was a bit confused by the same thing too because I think it's not that it's outside of the budget by that amount it's just the next step but perhaps you could just expand upon that and help us understand it yeah know it's a good question um related to the last line there the the construction management services so those those were were tendered they were they were tendered out by by Aquacon for those services as the construction manager so it um uh yes those those were fully tendered the the one related to the sather that um for continuity and making sure that we retain the same architect that was not um done through a competitive process because we want to remain with the same architect uh that just related to some of the additional work that was needed relating to those parking lot adjustments the storm water uh analysis which resulted in the need for an additional pond site so um so that that was not because of uh for that reason but those other ones because it's it's for each of those four tenders those are competitively tendered for the [Music] construction sorry can I ask a follow on question so then are are we saying then that Aquacon ran a competitive tender process itself and they're acting just as a conduit of the payment yes through the chair yes Aquacon ran competitive procurement and then I think the far column on the right where it says description is an important one to read because um using the Aquacon row as an example there it talks about uh tender package 1 1. 1249 673 which then I can see on page three of the peach King Center report then it talks about tender package two of um 7.42 4 738 which is also part of then tender package two on the peach King Center report and so some and under General conditions the 2, 8,674 so I can see sort of where that breakdown that NE that's on the far right hand column is tying into the columns on the peach King Center report which we we will get to later but just for everybody's um reference that's Finance report 24-25 so the two of them obviously go hand in hand um so I I guess are your questions answered on that or we go ahead y y no uh that makes sense thanks Tony and thank you are there any other questions about this particular report okay I see none um because this I asked to have both of these items um if we could just move to the tax rear report or shall we accept them each individually then individually okay then we will have the first resolution to wind this topic up um so the first resolution is resolve that the finance committee hereby approves sorry just this one just that one yes yeah just a you can just read a yes that report finan 24-22 the biannual procurement report dated August 22nd 2024 be received for information do I have a mover and a seconder the Mover is councelor cangi the seconder is counselor how and all those in favor by a show of hands please and that is carried so that's the first part the second part um is the tax are rear update and that's report 24-23 and Mr Del Monaco if you could just um walk us through that that would be great sure uh this uh report arose out of a discussion from last month's meeting um on broader economic factors uh such as interest rates and tax re as an indicator of property owner sensitivity to those factors so uh the bank of Canada's standard setting rate has begun to come down and as part of the economic update presentation we received last month we saw that interest rates were forecasted to continue to Trend down for the rest of this year and into next year however as people's fixed mortgages come due for Renewal they may be renewing at rates higher than they've been used to seeing so from a tax RoR perspective we are seeing uh outstanding amounts owing continue to Trend down which is obviously a good sign that figure was down to 4.3% as of the end of 2023 now I should note that the taxes levied that you see in the a report that represents all the taxes levied including for the region and school boards that's why that number is in the 70 Millions the outstanding amounts also relate to taxes owing for all levels of government now from a risk perspective The Province considers rear levels under 10% to pose low Financial Risk to the municipality and then you'll see the graph on page two of the reports shows how we compare to some other municipalities in our region the data there is for 2021 and 2022 which is the latest available data from our provincial F Financial information return and you can see that we're on the lower end of the scale which is where we want to be uh this tax a report is actually brought to committee annually in December uh and so most of the report here is taken from that report but it will be updated uh later on in a few months in December 2022 or December 2024 with updated information any questions councelor how uh thank you through you chair um Director D can we and certainly we don't name any but the number of properties that are in re like is it one property is it four properties is it eight properties and let me one more followup um back in a uh some time ago um and it was not with this term of counsel it was back a number of years ago but there was always one or two or three that were always in that that uh delinquent shall we say or in a rear um is it are there perennial uh people in that and number three you know it's one thing with the dollar value nowadays with houses for you know a million that those dollar numbers go up really fast um you know is there any kind of a breakdown without identifying anything so we can better understand if there is a an issue with uh for people is you kind of get a better idea of where where it really comes to play like who needs to be considered who needs help can I just summarize your questions the first one was how many properties make up our tax aers um so we'll start with that one yeah I don't have that number off hand but we can certainly look into adding that into the upcoming report in December if if that's fine and then I think the second question was are there Anye yeah we'll we'll call them that frequent flyers yeah so we took a look at the aging and about 75% is uh just from the past year uh meaning that the remaining 25 would be from uh the previous year or earlier so that just to give you an idea and we can again we can include that in the future versions of the report so we can see if that's increasing decreasing if I could just add a question to that thought that you just shared with us so we're looking at data at December 31st 23 and you're saying that 75% of the 3, 73,000 approximately has to do with the outstanding taxes for fiscal 2023 the remaining 25% then will be any of the years older than that yes so that's suggestion perhaps if if the next time the report comes you could give us a breakdown by the Aging that way would be very helpful member scandinavo I I I I think breaking down the agent would be helpful to figure out what's old but it doesn't show frequent flyers as you're as you're stating so I I I don't know if we can extract that information and I guess that information the name certainly councelor how said will be confidential um I guess we're the concern is more about people who are frequent flyers per perennially in that position um we do have a policy though and we have staff um I believe one of them may be on line with us who whose job it is to follow those up um would now be an appropriate time just to ask Miss Martin to chime in and perhaps explain the process of how she follows these up are you with us Lisa yes yes happy welcome happy happy to speak to that so yes so although um when you look at the arear it does indicate that they're 75% previous years we do have a policy and the province allows us to register properties that are in two years or more of AAR for tax sale proceedings that doesn't mean they all go to tax sale but it means that we are able to move forward and register properties and actually um secure a lean on the property so that collection can take place so a good um significant value of those previous year rear are registered and so we have have um secured collection on them so um that's just kind of what I wanted to chime in and and offer as an update we have we um pursue collection to the to as soon as they're able to be registered we're moving forward so we're managing those consistently if I could add a question to that um even before they get to that point where the properties can be registered by law perhaps you could just share with us um the work that you do to contact those rap paays prior to that and leading up to that sure so prior to actual registration so property owners are getting notices of their reers in a consistent manner so after due dates um and then at the beginning of the year so we look at properties at the beginning of January we determine who is eligible and we reach out to them again um with notification to say please contact us we um can offer payment plans we can work with the property owners to make sure their reers are settled um prior to registration they then would be sent uh subsequent to that a notice of uh what they uh Farm debt or intent to realize on security and following that period um 15 days after that notice if there's no response then collection would proceed and so we do take a number of steps to try and work with property owners ensure that they have options before they're registered and registrations are fairly low consistently um after those steps so there's a lot of work that goes into it prior to actual registration it's a very successful um process um something that's not implemented as often as you would think but it does uh assist municipality significantly with collection any questions from any of the committee members I see none thank thank you very much U Miss Martin for that additional information any further questions on the tax arear in general councelor Chris Angie thank you through chair I think it's uh it's a great way to sort of see the health of of our community I'm just curious if we and this would be a little bit more difficult I'm sure uh out of the realm but uh numbers correlating with the food bank because I'm wondering if people use the food bank to subsidize like paying bills and stuff like that it would be hard to determine renters and stuff like that but it might be something to consider maybe um partnering with them at at their year end to see if the numbers co-relate if that is something that's happening just to determine a more uh accurate um uh Viewpoint of because it's easy to say everybody's paying their taxes that everybody's everybody's doing financially okay but it but it is a little bit of a consideration if if say we have homeowners that are using the food bank and with the money they're saving they're paying their taxes it's not to say that they're necessarily doing okay right they're surviving but I just think it might be it might be an interesting correlation to see if the numbers of the food bank go up and the taxes obviously the food hopefully would have like the difference between the people that rent the people that own but it might be an interesting uh correlation um I'm going to let Mr joh Moo chime in and perhaps just talk about privacy and confidentiality around our tax reers and the names on there yeah certainly tax serers is just one indicator Ator of Financial Health there's there's many others that could be could be looked at and um and certainly there could be choices people have to make to uh when it comes down to it um and you're right we' have to if we were to look into something like that we have to look obviously at the the Privacy making sure that there was very high level information and if the food bank was willing to share that I'm not sure but um yeah definitely something that uh like I said one one more indicator of Financial Health that could be looked at [Music] yeah I think even from the perspective of you know I'll say GBF in town you know they have privacy and confidentiality concerns that will guide them too as to how much they can share and this is pro and and my second comment would be that this is property taxes for property owners so if tenants were having a hard time paying their rent for example we would never know that right because we are dealing only with the property owner not with we don't collect anything from the tenants right go ahead thank you through chair just to clarify uh the food bank every year puts out their numbers of households and stuff like that so never would I ask specific names or or stuff like that they already have their generalized numbers to put out to the public of how what the increase of households is and stuff like that and they would know homeowners and and that there are a lot of homeowners that are actually using the food bank so I just thought it would be interesting just to take their their generalized yearly numbers if there was a big increase and then and just sort of compare the two in a full sort of picture but yeah thank you councelor VY um I just want to say that while that could be interesting I'm not so sure um it's statistically valid or that the correlation that there's exactly a correlation there so I would be just a little hesitant just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean that there's a relationship between the two of them so I I think somehow when you're looking at those kinds of questions you have to be very careful how you structure them in advance of your data collection with that okay and I guess um you know originally I'll I'll just share my thinking as to why I thought this information in attack Sur report was relevant um is that I think the healthiness of our outstanding taxes receivable is an indication of people's ability to pay and I will say I take that as a guiding Factor amongst many amongst many factors into consideration when we get into the budget and then we look at what are we planning to do going forward how much of an increase right like um so it's just one factor I will say that I personally take into account um another one that Mr Delmont mono and I had been talking about last week was you know the um loan loss Provisions that the banks have been adding to their balance sheets meaning their allows for uncollectable mortgages is really what they're talking about and how the banks have been adding significantly to those Provisions because they are expecting that as these mortgages are coming due in 25 and 26 they're going to have many many of them that are going to have maybe using the word trouble renewing but just where the mortgage balances are going to be higher because uh to use an example they've been variable rate mortgages people haven't been able to pay all the interest and that's been added to the principal balance and so I I think all of the banks that carry um house mortgages on them have been quite concerned about that too so you're right there's many pieces of financial information out there that we just need to keep an eye on um to gauge what effect is having on our residents and yeah the number of people at the food bank you know what the banks are doing what they're seeing in their mortgage portfolios you know what we're seeing in our taxes receivable and I'm sure if we think about it there's probably half a dozen other indicators we could think of too that that can help guide us in all of this if there are no further questions about this report then I will read the resolution that report financed 24 4-23 on the tax aers update dated August 22nd 2024 be received for information if I could have a mover for that to start with councelor Changi a seconder counselor how and by show of hands all those in favor that motion is carried we will then move on to item number eight on our agenda which is is um our investment policy amendments and so could I have a mover and seconder to get it on the floor for discussion member scandinavo has moved and councelor vardy has seconded uh so if we could move to finance report 24-24 we'll ask Mr Del Monaco to just lead us through that thank you uh this is in followup to last month's presentation and discussion on our investment policy so we're recommending a few relatively minor updates they're outlined in red in the policy uh so one of the changes we're recommending is that a new appendix appendix B be included in the investment policy which spells out investment term limits so one of our policy's primary objectives is to ensure liquidity is maintained So to that end we're recommending the implementation of limits on the length of an investment as it relates to our overall portfolio so you'll see see that per the new proposed limits um a minimum of 30% of our cash and portfolio Investments should have a term to maturity of less than one year whereas longer dated portfolio Investments would be limited to maximums of 50% of the portfolio for maturities of more than 5 years out and a maximum of 30% of the portfolio for Investments with end dates more than 10 years out we've also clarified the scope um and the scope section of the investment policy that government business enterprises are outside of the scope of the policy uh these types of Investments are actually outside of the scope of um portfolio Investments when it comes to the municipal act as well however we have added an appendix C to the policy just to outline our government business Enterprise ownership structure and holdings then the last matter I'd like to address is our ability to invest in equities with the one investment fund now this isn't really an amendment our investment policiy always provided us with the ability to invest in equities but in speaking with the One Fund we need the bylaw in appendix D pass to allow us to enter into an agency agreement with them to authorize that they can invest the funds on our behalf so as part of the investment strategy update presented last month it was suggested that 10 million of Our rough roughly 80 million in cash and Investments be invested in equities through the One Fund to help gain diversification benefits and opportunities for potentially higher overall returns so for some background the One Fund is a not for-profit organization that was formed in 1993 by local Authority services and the Chums financing corporation which is a subsidiary of the municipal officers Municipal Finance Officers Association so the focus of the One Fund is to provide investment options that support the needs of Ontario municipalities and they manage 3.8 billion in portfolio Holdings for over 170 Ontario municipalities the One funds Equity Holdings are based on the Toronto Stock Exchange so it's Canadian equities only and while it's based on the TSX it does not mirror the TSX the fund is managed to reduce overexposure in areas where TSX is heavily tilted such as in financials and the Reon res ources sector if there's any questions related to those changes be happy to take them any questions for many members member scandinavo go ahead uh Tony uh first of all thank you very much for that report obviously uh it's a it's a big ask and there was a lot to do there and this was like very thoroughly laid out so thank you thank you very much for putting that together so quickly I just had a couple of quick questions um and I think you answered some of them with your explanation so um we'll skip those ones so my qu I have a couple questions uh in particular about uh appendix c as it relates to like our you know uh town-owned assets or like you know non-traditional assets let's call them um and in the report it says that you know the investment policy you know kind of provided by The Province or the guidelines provided by The Province and Municipal act doesn't relate to like town-owned assets it relates more to the traditional style Investments so as a result of you know these type assets not being um part of you know section 25 or chapter 25 I should say does that like that doesn't preclude us from having our own style policy on that where we measure similar type um um you know rates of uh rates of return and similar Styles um you know sorry I didn't think this question through so thoroughly but it doesn't preclude us from having a similar style investment policy on Town owned assets does it no no it doesn't it it just means we don't have to consider those in in uh when considering the portfolio investment policy but you're right it could be that's obviously would be up to us than thank you uh follow on question to that then you know would it be wise to perhaps maybe consider something like that um whereby we can value or we can review the um performance of these Investments as we would review performance of other style Investments yeah we can look at that I guess the hard part there would be kind of what are you benchmarking against right are you just you B benchmarking against the return on the Investments I don't know if that would be fair but yeah that's uh I could possibly look into that you know I agreed it's not as straightforward as you know looking at the value of your TD stock and comparing it to to to other performers but maybe just opening the floor on that sort of discussion um and then again thank you for appendix C like it it definitely brought forward um that large asset that we have on our balance sheet with NPI and I'm just curious in appendix C you stated a several different values are those book values or Market values yeah good question those are book values those are taken from the financial statements um do we have any sort of um like uh understanding of the return on investment as it relates to both the book value and more importantly I guess the market value as it stands today yeah I would say the market value information is not readily available to us um it might be worth it to have uh GPI perhaps come to a future meeting to outline um some of this for us if if that might be the will of committee councelor vardy thank you we did have valuation done a couple of years ago so there there is something available although I think that would have to be updated in the current environment go ahead any other questions uh no I think I think we covered them all there sorry my my voice is loud I just came through a big boom yeah sorry I didn't mean to SLE you there but no no I I appreciate that Tony and I appreciate the answers the the my questions I did have one last questions question on that uh Equity proposal you brought forward how does that relate to our relationship with CIBC would this would this be like uh an Endeavor we would take via CIBC or is this then managed separately and apart from CIBC yeah through the chair thanks for the question yeah know this this would be separate from CIBC so um One Fund really is the only Avenue if we wanted to partake in in equity Investments as a municipality and so um yes it would be totally separate from CABC no I I I I think I'm good um no I think I'm good for now thank you any other committee members with questions I think um that member scandinavo uh raised a few points that I thought might be good just to clarify in appendix c um that perhaps um and I'll start at the top that the um you're quite right the the general ownership is that the town we we say that the town owns 90% um it actually owns 23 common shares and 90 Class A pref shares and a third outside party owns 10 class CL B preference shares and then nager power owns 100% of Grimsby power um and so I was thinking perhaps that would be an addendum that we could just add that in that nagra power owns 100% of the common shares and and Mr delm mono if you could look up the exact correct name I don't know if they're called common or if they have another terminology but just to clarify that that part and then under the latter half or the latter third of the page investment details and and all those numbers are as of December 31st 2022 um but we do have 2023 financial statements available um but I was going to say so under the promiser note receivable the amount issued that actually is the original amount issued and that is still the principal amount outstanding even at December 31st 2023 uh the common and preferred shares where it says value at 6.9 million I think you clarified that already for member scandinavo that actually is the recorded value on the balance sheet that's not actually the valuation of those common shares and then the retained earnings again that's what's recorded on the balance sheet 5.9 million that's not as you pointed out that's not the actual valuation of them and um and and then on the last point I think it's important and I realize this sounds like the accountants but we talk about the net investment valued at$ 18.9 million again that's not a valuation that's the recorded value on the town's balance sheet and that's because we have to follow CPA Canada's public sector accounting rules and um boy do they make life interesting so that the way we record our investment in them is we pick up our share of the net income and again it's not that easy because we only own 90% of grimp power so there is a calculation that goes into it but it's basically done under what they call the modified Equity basis um and so again it's not evaluation and we don't but that number changes every year on our balance sheet and it basically changes by I'll say our share of the profit of these entities less any dividends that we receive from them and um this year they did declare a dividend again of 200,000 of which the town will receive 180,000 so this net investment um yeah the promissary note receivable is actually on the town's books that's a value that is on the town's balance sheet the net investment the very last one 18.9 million is a number that's actually on the town's balance sheet but the common and preferred shares and the retainer earnings those are um I believe just information you picked up from their financial statements of 2022 is that correct perhaps we could just you know um make a few amendments to that so that there isn't any any confusion ever as to valuation versus what's recorded in the accounting records member scandinavo would you like to add to that yeah I I I more or less just maybe wanted a recap of like what we sort of agreed to or uh didn't agree to uh here um so obviously um chair You' you you've identified some modifications to the document uh I guess I was wondering like are we agreeing on like a new valuation are we agreeing on listing cuz right here you've done a great job on highlighting um you know on on uh on the town of grimsby's balance sheet what the value of this investment is right but we're not necessarily stacking that up against perhaps what the return on the investment is which is the dividends right and perhaps if there's any sort of other intrinsic uh uh um you know return on investment that we'd like to highlight and then are we going to consider and again I know probably have a 100,000 things on the go and you know it doesn't have to be at the next meeting I'm just talking in general to say like are we considering sort of a uh investment style policy although not we're not obligated to but are we considering perhaps an investment policy related to assets of this nature and maybe what are some of the criteria we want to use to gauge or uh monitor our return on this investment to to to ensure that the town of Grimsby is you know benefiting to the you know the level that it should given the size of the investment thank you I think I'm I I'll let councelor how go first and then um I I'll just reiterate though that I think I'm hearing two questions one is you know um should we work on having an investment policy for internally owned Investments like the one in nager power/ grimp power and then so I I'm hearing that as your first question um that that would be something that we could work on and then the second question what I that I was hearing was um just like we do with our outside Investments that we review the value and the return on investment and so on as well um am I summarizing your thoughts correctly yes thank you thank you I I I I ran on with that question so thank you for paraphrasing it for me but yes those are those are my two general questions but the second point I don't necessarily think we need to wait to get an investment policy in place CU that could take time right and we really should think that through um to actually look at sort of the um the return on investment as it stands today right I think we could probably do that just it's you know some basic math uh uh that we could probably have let's say sooner rather than later and then sorry there is a third question the third question is are we agreeing or not agreeing to potentially considering a you know Market valuation of this asset I think I was thinking that was part of the second question that there was there would be a market valuation but I I'll take that as a third one for sure um and um councelor how you have the floor um I can dumb it down a lot further than that I've got stocks I know what the stock is worth I can make my decisions if I don't know what it's worth how can I make any decisions on it so any other comments from committee members I will add that um yes both councelor vardy and I were on uh nagra Power when the Val when we had evaluation done actually by nagra power and trying to remember that particular year and I'm going to say I think it was late in 2020 or early in 2021 somewhere in that time period um where um the holding company went out and hired a firm um very knowledgeable in the um field of um local distribution companies in the hydro field and they produced um two reports as I recall for us one was a an actual valuation what do these things sell for how much is this particular one worth and then a second report they produced which really talked about the risks and challenges and strengths weaknesses what I I don't remember the exact title of the report but I recall it was sort of a two-fold report that way um and certainly that was a good I'm going to say four years ago so you're quite right the world has changed we've gone through a pandemic in that time period and um would probably be an excellent idea to have that brought up today date councilor VAR did you want to add yeah I mean the it's just a question and it's really about has anything changed in energy policy in those four years that might significantly impact that valuation I don't know what the answer is it's just a question um because I'm you know I'm hearing uh that there's a a lot of politics around the issue of energy so just just wondering if there's anything that would make the company more or less valuable in the current climate and I guess those are the things we don't know until we go out and get that report right I think um when I think about an investment policy in this regards um I think that you know to use the example that councelor how used and I think counselor and and member scandinavo too that we don't know the market value of it because it's not a frequently traded commodity on a stock exchange so the only way to do it and it is possible there are people who who are skilled in this area is to actually ask them to Value it and and when I think about that I think a really good thing is that at least once in every term of council there should be evaluation of it and we should relook at this um you know um not saying this is something that needs to be done on an annual basis but certainly is worth at least looking you know on a on a regular basis um not necessarily every year but to look at that um but I think we need a motion if we're going to suggest some of these things so I'm going to ask the clerk to uh help that perhaps um let me try and word it for you um that it is the recommendation of the finance committee that evaluation be done of Grom be power that's pretty short and sweet um do we um and I think the really difficult part and I give full kudos to the third party company that also and it's no surprise it's Fortis um that owns part of grimby power but the last time we did that they were extremely I will say well-mannered and cognizant of the fact that it was the that it was the holding company getting this value done but that they obviously um have a interest in this entity right and they totally stood down I I mean they absented themselves purposely from meetings and said we don't want to know um I mean they are in the industry know the this information better than we do and so they probably know way more than we do in this regard and um and basically were very good and said you know we have a they they basically said we have a conflict of interest here and we will stand down in all of this right so um the the reason I'm sharing this is because it might be good to actually have this valuation done at the Town level rather than at nagra power so that we don't put foris in this situation um so it might be better to have Town staff do it and present it you know here than to try and stick handle through those other issues at that other company but councelor vardy go ahead just for those who don't know they have right a first refusal to buy it so if they were to be involved in evaluation low ballet um that's to their advantage so they don't want to be um complicit in something so they're wanting to be completely independent for that reason you could you read that resolution back to us um yeah through you chair I've got resolve that the finance committee recommends staff complete evaluation of Grimsby power just need a moover and seconder for that one I see councelor house hand up well take that as the Mover a seconder member scandinavo all those in favor by a show of hands please and that is carried you did have a second thought there though that I didn't want to lose and that had to do with developing an investment policy for internally owned Investments like um this investment and the technical term is in a government government business Enterprise but by that we really mean by our investment in AGR power and cby power um but that was kind of a second you your comments were I think that you know the valuation really needs to be done first and then as a followup um or simultaneously we could work on developing an investment policy around that um councelor already had her hand up first though so on the second topic I'll let her speak first and then member scandinavo yeah I guess what I'm wondering do we isn't this the only asset we have of this kind like in terms of internal so I'm wondering if a policy is really required to apply to one thing like would it be easier we just discuss the one thing and make a decision do we need to have a policy about it I just I I don't want to create extra work but but maybe I'm I could be off base but yeah I I I suppose it's a good point I'm definitely open to that thought I think the only thing in my mind is to say that like what's like the guiding principle and whether or not we think something has a good return on investment or not like so the the reason for a policy in my opinion would be to sit back and say okay you know the valuation been done we understand what the return on investment is you know what do we stack this up against um and and perhaps like I'm not even suggesting Reinventing the wheel like Hydro companies and other sort of government business enterprises are probably owned by dozens of towns in in cities across the province right so I I can't imagine that we're the first people to think about this to say like look it's not part of the investment policy but you know we could have some sort of tack on policy where we evaluate other types of assets so even just seeing what exists out there and in due time coming up with with something and again just more or less to be able to measure what we find in the valuation with some sort of Independence or some sort of um you know some sort of measure that that is that is other than just the folks at the table and if I could just add to that and then I'll let give the floor to member to councelor vardy um it doesn't mean we're contemplating selling we're just contemplating a policy with some criteria in it that may highlight things for future committees and future councils so that they know perhaps when something's off the rails right that these are the guiding principles ah they've done this examination this is off the rails compared to what the policy is time to go back and look right so it's yeah it's it's just to develop I'll say sometimes some criteria to evaluate it so you know when to take steps if you need to right councelor vardy yeah I guess the only thing that I would that I would caution is that well well we may find our Roi is low um it may be providing a benefit to the population that's tangible so that would have to be taken into consideration uh because if we don't do that then then looking at the ROI in isolation doesn't tell you the whole story of of what you're thinking about exactly and I think that's why all those criteria need to be built into that policy right U member scandinavo I'll let you speak one last time and then councelor how yeah sorry know I completely agree it's not just it's not just about the monetary Roi there's other intrinsic benefits to having these sorts of assets so it's putting that on a page to say what do we value both you know tangibly and intangibly uh in these types of assets um what sort of benefits they bring to the community so you know having like evaluation done is one piece of it but having a policy to determine how do we measure what the outcome of all these numbers are or all this discussion is to help guide like you know a process of putting things back on the rails if it's off the rails or whatever the case may be so but thank you and your great points councelor h if I can just to kind of uh confuse it not confuse it but expand it a little bit more uh we are doing a lot of work on Asset Management okay now is that an asset for us if so how are we managing it like for the future is that our responsibility uh and if so that's a big number I believe on the asset side anyways uh to look at it from that perspective so just so we can better understand it from a true business perspective I've always said it's the third largest number on our balance sheet so um you know after our Capital infrastructure being the biggest one the second one now our investments our external Investments and the third one being our investments here um Mr delm mono would you like to add any thoughts to this conversation well know just that it's not a it's not really one of our Capital assets it's not they know they have their own management team that's responsible for their own Capital planning and but right it is one of the biggest numbers on our balance sheet and like councilor already said there's much more than just Financial considerations to be thought of in terms of whether it's something that's worth worth it to us so we might need some some clarity in terms of what you want to cover off in that policy because it could be very Broad in that sense then to wrap up this conversation um and this topic um would anybody like to put forward a motion to um develop an investment policy with respect to I will say our investment in government business enterprises or to ask staff to work on an investment policy with respect to our GBE which is the acronym for government business enterprises councelor how um through you chair and if I can I'm wondering if we're not a little bit uh premature with that um as Council already said uh you know we've only got one right now um let's see we're what information we glean from that from from our standpoint and then tackle the uh the uh policy but let's see it may not even be worth doing a policy who knows who knows what's there but you you know just not dump something on on staff at this point in time anyways would it be appropriate then to amend that and to um suggest that this policy will be developed by staff after the valuation is done certainly you can work on it in the meantime if you have time on the work schedule and can um fit it in but that it could be done after the valuation is done does that work with your workload in timing does that make sense to you Mr delaro yeah I think that valuation might help them form the policy okay I I'll ask the clerk to read that back to us after much discussion go ahead Katie I think I captured it so just let me know but through you chair um resolv that the finance committee recommends staff Begin work on a development policy with respect to government business enterprises after the valuation of Grimsby power has been completed um I think it should say on an investment policy an investment policy yeah on an investment policy um could I have a mover for that councelor how a seconder member scandinavo all those in favor by raising your hand please and that is carried thank you let me get go back and find where I am now on the um there were some other investment policy changes though so we've really focused on on append on appendix C and so on but um I'll ask the clerk have we really covered off do you need any more resolutions for us initially the resolution was to accept the report Finance 24-24 investment policy amendments dated August 22nd 24 be received that the committee recommends Council approve the amended investment policy um Finance re re003 attached as appendix a that coun that the committee recommends Council approved the draft bylaw attached as appendix D to allow the town of Grimsby to enter into an agency agreement with respect to one investment authorizing the treasurer to execute the necessary documents from time to time for that purpose um so we've got the Mover and second and we have the Mover and seconder thank you we had so much discussions since Sen was uh was beginning to forget that um any other questions just before I ask for the vote do we know how the one investment entity has done with their Investments maybe if you could just to add that one last comment Mr delaro yeah over the past 10 years they've returned an average of 9% per year um but of course past performance isn't indicative of future performance so keep that in mind past performance is not always indicative of the future but the results of the past at least are good is what you're telling us um okay then I will ask for a show of hands on the resolution all those in favor by raising your hand please and that is carried thank you the next discussion Point under number eight is the August update on the peach King Center expansion if I could have a mover and seconder to get it on the floor please councelor vardy has moved that councelor how has seconded that and so I'm going to ask Mr delm Monaco just to walk us through that one thank you so good news to share the tender package three has come in substantially under budget by about $1.8 million and so that savings is more than covering some overages that we experienced in the earlier phases of the project and it's also more than offset uh the change orders that have been approved so far for 449,000 so now overall total project we're now projecting a surplus of 1.2 million now the final construction tender package package four um has actually just closed a couple days ago the budget for that package is 2.9 Million uh we don't know where that's come in yet the bids are still in the process of being validated uh but for the purposes of this forecast we're assuming that package will come in on budget we're also assuming Furniture fixtures and equipment to come in on the budget of $600,000 and we're being conservative with our estimates assuming that the full project contingency will be used up as well in this forecast so so these amounts will be updated in future reports as the actual costs continue to come in and then we'll have um clearer forecasts as we as we move along if there's any questions councelor how you have the floor thank you through you chair um director the um pretty nice to see beat the head outut of some of the other um projects that you hear about um around the province around the region um you know kudos to to everybody even but it puts a bit of a lump in my throat just being kind but uh but I'm going to emphasize your last well two paragraphs really that's the change orders because you're absolutely right you know in the report everything's bought now it's got to be assembled put together put in the right place now the change orders start to show and it can be an avalanche so it you know keep placing it keep hmer keep saying no to it any other comments or questions from committee members I'm not seeing any so yes it is a really good news story partway through this project it is excellent news to hear uh so I will um we have a mover and seconder I resolved that report Finance 24-24 on the peach King Center expansion August update dated August 22nd 2024 be received all those in favor with a show of hands please and that is carried item nine on our agenda has to do with correspondents and we have none at this time yes did I miss something um [Music] you are right yes the agenda has 8.4 is finance 24-25 that is definitely an administrative error I will make that change for the minute so that it is 24-25 okay you caught a typing error there thank you yes so we that was the approval of Finance 24-25 just for everyone on the peach King Center expansion August update um item nine correspondence we have none item 10 other business we had added an item on there which had to do with the um release of the agenda and reports um Mr Del Monaco maybe you could just give us an update on where we're at looking at all of that yeah through the chair if I could turn it over to the clerk for some comments um through you chair so the office of the clerk is bringing a report to council um in SE setember which is reviewing the procedural bylaw just a midterm um review of it um this will also include the timing of agenda publication as well I I think we we tried really hard this time and we got it out on Monday rather than Tuesday so we took baby steps forward um we just need to take a really big step now and try and get it out on Friday but councelor how did you want to add to that no I don't want to add to that but um the and the director uh gave us a note or with an explanation and I'll speak for uh member Thompson because at the last meeting he asked about a uh a budget survey and that budget survey is up on uh let's talk and it was going to expire at the end of this month you've extended it into September 8th um you know there's certainly a chance or an opportunity for someone if they they want to say something by all means say something um my say is is it possible and then I'm just thinking about and I don't have a young family at home anymore but that first week of September used to be just jam packed full of a whole lot of things that didn't allow you to kind of get your head around the the everyday business of running a household you know you got the the kids um meet the teachers etc etc is it possible that we could extend it out a little bit further than than the eth director yeah sure any that's possible uh we could we could extend it further um there's a budget um kind of kickoff set for the end of report set for the end of September we're hoping to have some information from the survey by then but we could incorporate results to dat that wouldn't be a problem to extend it that's a good suggestion and if you're able to do it that that would be great any other business to come forward from anyone seeing none then um we were trying to conduct a a survey I guess to move the date of the next meeting um from I believe it was set for the 26th but we have a delegation coming and they're not able to make it at that time so we were looking to move the meeting to October 3rd and um our Clerk's Department was trying to coordinate all of that does it look like at this point that works for everybody um so um just to note then the next meeting will be on Thursday October 3rd at 6:00 p.m. and uh if there are no other items then we will call this meeting adjourned thank you thank you thanks B have a good one you too gang